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 How Fate / Another should develop in near future(in preparation for Tournament)

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Rank : Lancer (5) Posts : 308
Join date : 2009-08-27
Location : Toronto

PostSubject: How Fate / Another should develop in near future(in preparation for Tournament)   Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:19 pm

Hi all. I have left Fate Another scene for quite a while and came back while ago to start play again. I actually watch some replays from last tourney and had somethings that I wanted to discuss about, this actually came into my attention before I quit Fate / Another as well, but I had no solution to it, so I ended up keeping it quite.

Now this problem doesnt really matter in NA/EU/SEA in private or pub games, but it is quite serious in tournament in Korea and need to be dealt with. - Main issue is the camping. So One thing I noticed in last tourney on Final, Korean team vs UFW team, when Korean team won the fight - (as in killing one in 5v5), they would just run away instead of continously battling it out.

This is understandable considering the nature of fate another as you never know what can have in 4v5, and therefore they are risking to lose and take the win. However, to people who watch Fate Another, this can be really boring.

Fate Another is a great game and deserves more attention; however, if official tourney is played like this - I would doubt people would enjoy watching them when they are sitting in their base for 10 min and fight for 1 min , and sit in base for 10 min and so on.

There is no real solution to this issue, unfortunately, as they are doing what they can to win the game. We cant blame them for dodging the fight that they might lose, or not fighting until they are in better position - such as waiting for Godhand of Zerker 5th, or Lancelot to have rule breaker and so on. This boring trend of tourney match however doesnt seem very unusual to me - who was hardcore league of legend player on season 2 and season 3.

When Korean came in on season 2, they came in with the most boring strategy - lane swap. So for those of you who have no understanding of league of legend, I will explain it briefly. League of legend has this thing called EU Meta. This means that one player would go top (Usually Tanker/Damage Dealer), One player would go Mid (Usually Heroes that use Magic), One player would go to Jungle (Usually Tanker), and there will be two going bot, (One supporter and one Damage dealer)

There are a lot of reasons behind this meta and controversial behind it, but I wont go in too depth about it for this post is about comparing it to Fate Another not League of Legend. Anyhow, Koreans brought this meta that 2 duo who would go bot lane would instead go top and play 1v2, and send their top laner to bot for 2v1. This actually made game insanely boring.

Why? Well, since it is 2v1 lane, you wont be able to farm at all. This mean you would not pick any champ that need time to be strong, instead pick the champ that can survive and dont need much farms. So most carry heroes were abandoned. This also influenced role of Jungle alot in a way that originally Jungler was meant to gank other lanes and make play, but since it is 2v1 lane, it would be very risky for jungler to gank such lane, so instead of picking jungler that is meant for ganking, pros would pick Heroes that can push the waves alot.

So imagine this LoL game where you dont have any kills for 15 min, all laners pushing the lane. So for viewers this was boring as hell. Riot did not like this meta as much and tried to solve this by giving armor to first tower forcing to stop doing lane swap, but still pros would do it anyway because lane swap was always worth it.

Now this kinda stopped while ago because of the new meta. Whoever that kills first tower gets more gold. Since if you send 2 players to top, you will lose your bot tower faster than enemy who is pushing bot because top tower has armor that bot tower doesnt have. So basically, forcing 2v2 lane and forced more active fight instead of farming/pushing for first 15min.

We used to have this boring camping strat in more extreme level when TA had assassination. So Team would just wait for other team to use assassination and tries to counter it with team link. OR we would have team just camp and wait for Assassination , therefore having about 1hour and 30min game and have no actual fight for more than 45min.

Even though Assassination is gone and now there are different ways to attack other than going straight through bridge, still attacking always has the risk, so most team would just defend until enemy team come OR they would just kill one and quickly run away and camp again.

This HAS to change. This will really kill the game because no viewers - even myself who love watching F/A - will like the game after watching games with no fights for so long. Then Question would be How.

How can we force one team to attack the other? So lets go step by step.

A) Attacking is worse than defending
B) Attacking does not have any benefit
C) Defending is better than attacking

Now in order to break this argument, we have to decide what argument to break. A) cannot be broke. Attacking is always worse because A) Defender can always ward up first and people who would attack are at disadvantage in late game. (such as no Lancelot or no Berserker or no Caster) While now there are 3 ways to attack, still you have to go through small choke point and it always has a risk.

B) B has some room to tackle in because while right now we do not have any advantage of attacking but if we can get some advantage or disadvantage of constantly defending. However, this I do not have an answer yet.

Fate Another is fan based game and therefore there are no pros for it, which means it will be really hard for developer to balance this thing out, but I trust kok can somehow deal with this matter. (To be honest, in terms of NA/EU it doesnt really matter because we usually fight alot, but people who are only concerned about winning the match, this needs to be discuss.)

Thanks for reading this long post.

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PostSubject: Re: How Fate / Another should develop in near future(in preparation for Tournament)   Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:48 pm

There are few things you can do to help the team that is attacking like getting control of something on the bridge that gives a bonus sight for the round to all servants or try to reduce even more the wards duration so you have to be smart on when to place them and you don't just set them at the round start.
The problem when you get advantage and you run is kinda hard to deal with;a way would be that the team that is at disavantage gets a map advantage like if after x seconds there was no damage dealt they get extra stats point or extra gold/map sight for few seconds and then if even after that time nothing happens you add another bonus but as i said before this is really hard to balance.
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Rank : Lancer (5) Posts : 292
Join date : 2010-03-19
Age : 23
Location : Canada,Quebec,Montreal

PostSubject: History and What did dun do?   Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:12 am

Dun basically said same thing as you when he was playing for few months when he came back into the game. He was upset that the game was dying because it became less proactive as players didn't seek to make advancements to fight and ultimately avoided them in competitive scenario or take fights that were "sure-win".

Now let me explain these 3 premises
A) Attacking is worse than defending
B) Attacking does not have any benefit
C) Defending is better than attacking

A) and C) are basically same premise and let me explain to why this one is not true while B) is true. In fate, because this game is hero arena, the objective of the game mode is have more players alive then opponent when timer ticks to zero or to wipe out a team. If you Accomplish this goal in total 12 times. You will claim victory. Now both teams start with equal amount of players alive meaning that at least one player must die in order for one team to triumph over the other to be victories.

Now we have to introduce two types of new vocabulary to explain how one team loses. They stem from these two results baring special scenario skills.
First one is called a "Pick-off"

A pick-off is very straightforward, in fact it appears in league of legends as well. It is when a team kills a member of the enemy team without consuming a vital resource in a particular given moment of time. Some can describe it as "catch" or Surprise attack, But it doesn't have to be one in this game. As long as you do not suffer a return causality, it is pick-off. Now this is very potent in a game mode like this one because it allows the team to play at hero advantage when engaging in something known as "Trade". Most of the time, a pick off occurs when a player is out of position (purposely or by error) and the fight is often disadvantageous to him or her, However if it is 1vs1, it is known as duel, a duel always results in a pick-off by one team or another. In fate, they tend to be very short however they can amount to a team-fight which players refer to as baits.

Second one is known as a "Trade"

In league, When two champions lane, Players often refer to an exchange as a trade, however in league, Trades happen among health pools in lane and not kills. In fate, there are no lanes and therefore, trades happen in the form of team fights. In other words, performing a trade will involve deaths and you always want to be on the winning end. Formally A trade is simply an exchange for set of hero's with another. For example, If you have 6vs6 and the result of the fight leads to 5vs4, Team 1 has "Traded" one particular servant for 2 servants. This goes on in a round until no servants remain on enemy team(Known as wipe out) or until the round timer is up declaring the winner based off who won more trades in a given round.

Now let's explain A) and C) premise. Attacking is better when you are certain to win a trade or able to develop a pick, However every trade or pick that may involve certain level of risk. If you are already winning, you can avoid the risk altogether and not fight. When i was playing that tournament, Somewhere along lines, I was experiencing a lot of map movement that was beyond something I've ever encountered. We'd run cross the map in circles chasing enemy team while other team was running until they'd strike us in a certain way and we'd either won or lost a trade depending on how the team fight went. Defending might be better coined as running or avoiding the fight is better when you are "already winning". If you are truly defending from an attack, you'll engage in a trade and one team is certain to win or lose. Initiator's can provide an advantage, to the start of a team-fight, however most initiations are able to be countered or thwarted altogether in certain cases. The premise is not true because one team must somehow take out at least one player which will either involve a pick-off(a mistake) or engagement in a team-fight which will result in one team winning out on a particular trade.

So why is the game so stale and slow? In the mid-game, I'd say the game is pretty lively, however when heroes become more durable from strength stacking, you don't feel very confident that you can strike first and win. The idea was that if heroes became more durable then the damage they put out, you won't be able to make solo-plays and therefore have to work with your team to deliver decisive victory kills to encourage team-play. As for the vision game, As soon as a hero attacks, they're in your vision, even for long range attacks such as Emiya(5th) hrunting so i wouldn't call it an advantage but more of mistake done by your team or yourself to allow pick-off to happen without getting anything in return. If there was an advantage to defending, it would be vision which medea often displays with her territory of skeleton and zero-caster's Monster/Q. In most cases, both teams are able to place equivalent the same amount of wards/familar within limitation of gold and there are sight-skills in the game to temporally equal the vision game to begin an attack or in other cases demoralize from attacking.

Let's talk about how old game handled attacking and defending. So first off, The characters selection was very limited such that select able servants were Saber/Archer/Cu/Medusa/Medea/Kojiro/Berserker/Gilga/Ta/Avenger/Alter, Later an addition Diarmuid and Lancelot appeared to expand Sin and main pool. Players wanted to avoid character stack, so they put favorable attacking characters one side and favorable defense characters one side, however the side that represented attacking side was a tag stronger then defensive side. The meta is a lot more complex than this, but in short, characters that represent attacking-side were a bit stronger then defensive side to keep the game lively and interactive.

So what did dun do? So first thing he did is he changed the map to not have hills or elevated terrain such that landing surprise attack is more difficult and this leads to the map having more open field allowing players to manipulate their movement in a way that was not predictable by the opponent. If you wonder why it's predictable in our map, The roads and the building have small passage ways, like the roads that leads to shirou's house which leads to two roads leading temple, which leads to castle. If there are limited passage ways, it makes your warding life a lot simpler meaning its difficult to completely do a surprise attack from offense side, but easy to create one from defensive side.

Second thing he did is. He invented a rule that if you are winning and you happen to tie, you lose and he shortened the round timer so you lost faster if you planned to stall.

Third thing he did made all characters stronger offensively from base spell perceptive giving players confidence to attack while keeping the combo's as situational(No char extra-type combos). This gave players confidence to engage as absorbing damage became less attractive and possibly impossible and as result, most fights are more likely to become wipe outs then goose chases or stand-stills where neither team has confidence to strike alone or as a team.

Did he do a good job? he got the job done by attacking premise B) advantages and providing losing-side have unfair advantages while rewarding offensive play-style and punishing defensive play-style. In someways, It did alright, however I think that winning-side who fight against this rule feel as if the losing team is getting rewarded by doing nothing. Now a days, i don't mind it as much because you feel you attack and kill entire team if given the opportunity. As simodino said, perhaps adding an area that when captured that gives unfair advantages to one team always might lessen the problem, but ultimately i don't think the problem will ever be gone because much its problem stems from systematic environment variables and to lesser degree the status quo.

Thanks for reading this very long reply, if you read it, also sorry for being super late.
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