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 Josph's DS Suggestion

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l46kok
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PostSubject: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:07 am

Note all integers and effects can be modified in this post.

Innate
Release Darkness(F)
--No change.

Prana Slash(Q)

Skill Classification: Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm
level 1: 160(310) Damage
level 2: 210(360) Damage
level 3: 260(410) Damage
level 4: 310(460) Damage
level 5: 360(510) Damage
--Stuns target for 0.5 seconds
Cast Range: 250
Cooldown: 9 seconds
Upgrade: Mana Burst (Adds 150 damage)

Mana Blast(W)

Skill classification: Great Magic
Level 1: 300 damage
Level 2: 390 damage
Level 3: 480 damage
Level 4: 570 damage
Level 5: 660 damage
Area of Effect: 300(500)
Cooldown: 14 seconds
Cast time: 0.65
Upgrade: Mana Blast (Reduces cast time to 0.2 and adds 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 second silence)

Excalibur(E)

Skill Classification: Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm
Level 1: 700 (1000) damage
Level 2: 900 (1200) damage
Level 3: 1100 (1400) damage
Level 4: 1300 (1600) damage
Level 5: 1500 (1800) damage
Cast Time: 2.5 seconds
Range: 2000
Cooldown: 37 seconds
Upgrade: Improve Excalibur (Adds 300 damage and causes Excalibur to slow by 25% for 5 seconds.)

Recklessness(R)

Skill Classification: Self Enhancement
--Causes debuffs to be removed every 0.5 seconds.
--Enables the use of Botigun (Replaces Recklessness icon)
Level 1: Adds 20% damage, 20% attack speed and 5% move speed.
Level 2: Adds 40% damage, 25% attack speed and 10% move speed.
Level 3: Adds 60% damage, 30% attack speed and 15% move speed.
Level 4: Adds 80% damage, 35% attack speed and 20% move speed.
Level 5: Adds 100% damage, 40% attack speed and 25% move speed.
---Cannot be removed from S/EX/Rule Breaker/Double-edged/Gae Dearg.
Duration: 10 seconds
Cooldown: 50 seconds

Botigun

Mana Cost: 0
Skill Classification: Anti-Army Noble Phanatasm
--Deals 0.85x to 1.2x damage based on slash duration.
--Can only be used while Recklessness is active.
Level 1: 400 damage.
Level 2: 500 damage.
Level 3: 600 damage.
Level 4: 700 damage.
Level 5: 800 damage.
Range: 560
Cooldown: 20 seconds
Upgrade: Improve Recklessness (Adds 150 damage to botigun and causes it to stun for 0.5 seconds.)

[Name to be decided.](Combo)

Activation: (Something)->R->R, or R->(Something)->R
--Causes Dark Saber to slash the area twice with Botigun in 2 different directions, one starting from left and one starting from right that deal 650(800) damage each, then Dark Saber slams her sword into the ground in a Flying melee slam dealing 1300 damage.

Damage: 650x2(800x2) + 1300. 2500(2800) total.
Time taken to complete spell: 0.5 second for each Botigun slash and 0.5 second for AoE slam.
Area of Effect: 560 for first 2 slashes, then 1300 damage within 1200 AoE.
Cooldown: 140 seconds.
Upgrade: Improve Recklessness (Adds 150 damage to each Botigun slash and causes the Botigun slashes to stun for 0.5 seconds)

Attributes

Mana Shroud(T)
Stat Cost: 11
Increases Magic Resistance by 5%, adds +30 armor and 10% melee damage return.

Mana Overload(Y)
Stat Cost: 16
Adds 150 damage to Prana Slash(Q), increases Mana Burst(W) AoE by 300 and causes it to silence for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 seconds.

Improve Recklessness(U)
Stat Cost: 15
Adds 10% to deal 400 damage, increases Botigun(Both combo and normal) damage by 150 and causes it to stun for 0.5 seconds.

Improve Excalibur(I)
Stat Cost: 14
Adds 300 damage to Excalibur and causes it do deal 500 additional damage to Demonic Creature.
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l46kok
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:07 am

This post will be speaking about Saber mostly.

Truth be told, Saber could and might as well be called as one of the most balanced heroes of f/a in its current state as I don't really see Saber having difficult overall as character but she does lack some things.

As I see it for Saber, she can either be put under the category of a generic hero for f/a which can only be modified as far as Dark Saber is at par with it, or can be a hero that should accel if Dark Saber is given opportunity to accel as well.

Suggestions:

Saber new innate
D - Unseal Invisible Air (Seal Invisible Air)
(Slows units by 25% within 600 aoe for 5 seconds when used.)
Cooldown - 20 seconds. (Cannot be used within 5 seconds of Invisible Air or Charge.)
Changes Invisible Air(Q) with Charge(Q).
*Based on Q level.

When Invisible Air is Unsealed.
Saber gains 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% attack speed and 5/10/15/20/25 movespeed. (Stacks with Charisma but does not boost Charisma and Charisma does not boost this.)

When Invisible Air is Sealed.
Saber gains 3%/6%/9%/12%/15% damage and attacks cause the target to be slowed by 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% for 1 second.
(Stacks with Charisma but does not boost Charisma and Charisma does not boost this.)


Charge - Single Target - Charges at selected unit stunning it for 0.5 second.
Level 1 - 160(310)
Level 2 - 210(360)
Level 3 - 250(410)
Level 4 - 310(460)
Level 5 - 360(510)
Cooldown - 8 seconds
Upgrade - Knighthood
Cast Range - 600

Avalon: while Avalon is active, it should be healing saber (like it did heal Shirou, Iris and Kiritsugu)

level 1: 3 hp reg
level 2; 6 hp reg
level 3: 9 hp reg
level 4: 12 hp reg
level 5: 15 hp reg

I was thinking about buff on damage, and when i think about it, the problem isn't really damage for Avalon, rather its the counter damage needed to activate it on low level Avalon is rather high. even the level 5 activation is bad as it says it suppose to activate at 300 damage, but yet s scroll does not activate Avalon, I'd suggest lowering counter per level but Avalon is already a skill that is really strong although it would nice if the activation damage included 300 as number instead of 301, but in that case, it might just make Avalon to easy to trigger to begin with.

Standard combo being R E (does not require purchase of 1st attribute)
To be honest, I've never seen people really use Max Excalibur without getting 1st attribute so the combo should just be changed to R->E as standard.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:11 pm

I want to give my opinion about Ds first.
The idea you wrote seems nice to me but as you said mana blast skill kill ds use of seal since as it is now is used only with orbs and makes ds more an assasin early game.
While i was watching the video i noticed that the skill is supposed to be "Realese of darkness" can be made like a kind of hold or a istant pull instead having it has a slow/dmg aoe skill that is kinda easy to avoid cause cast time.
About Dexca yes the idea even there i like it maybe reduce cast time slightly to 2.2 sec but instead of the chance to freeze if enemy is hitted by it make that enemy that get hit are slowed and if they are hit at the edge of it or in a small aoe at end of beam they get freezed by 1 sec o.o .
About R avoid that buff is dispelled by Purge.
About her combo name i suggest a name like "Dark hit" or something like that XD.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:14 pm

In my opinion,

D - Unseal/Seal Invisible Air
Perhaps you can slightly change the idea of the spell- Don't have to unseal/seal Invisible Air, why not her armor too?

Unsealing
1) Don't have to just seal Invisible Air, it possibly can unseal her ''armor'' like in F/Z
2) Unseal = Either passively gives mana regen or when ''unsealed'' you gain mana (add some cooldown, so it won't be abused lol). == Saber uses her mana to seal her armor/IA, so...
3) Since it also unseals her ''armor'', she can gain some MS boost. == When you take off your armour, you're faster <_<

Sealing
1) Since it's "sealed'', canonically (is this a word?), no one knows the length of the sword (except few). Thus, it should deal more melee damage to certain chars, like Lancer?
2) When activated nearby enemies, it does slight pushback (150 units?) - MANA BURST, trololo?
3) Since she seals her armor, possibly you can add armor? == Cause...armor gives armor <_<.
4) You can reduce her MS while she uses this and add an attribute to remove the MS reduction o_o? ==When you wear your armour, slower, yes? o_o

For Avalon, you can add like...
1) When Saber is not in battle, her HP regen increases immensely (1/2/3/4/5% per second?)
2) When Avalon is used, HP regen is stopped. (or add a trigger if you want it to be stopped?)

Just ideas of course with a bit of taking from Kok's post o_o


Last edited by kaguhyphenya on Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:20 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:16 pm

lol?

well it's a thought only but there'ss like a spelling mistakes/some stuff (sorry)
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:24 pm

Now i talk about Saber (i hope to avoid to say something with no sense while writing this ^^).
I like the idea of the innate skill somehow we talked about it some times ago.
About avalon hp reg as it is now the hero i don't like the idea to add hp reg to it on the other hand i thought that if Charge is added you can somehow change avalon skill itself;i don't want to change the effect of it but most of time avalon triggered blink can put saber in a lot of dangerous way(for example got hit by enuma/dexca and be in the center of enemies or use it to try to escape but you get pulled back by it's effect eventhough does damage)and also the aoe damage when triggered can be easily avoided.
So instead to have a "forced" blink make that the first enemy that trigger avalon make saber able to use Qand dash to him (like she did on gilga in fsn since was her meele hit to kill gilga and not avalon) and do Q damage + damage based on R;in this way you can also reduce the trigger on avalon since the effect isn't istant and can be used only once unless you reset Q and enemies trigger avalon again.
If you want add a passive hp reg from avalon imo you should nerf the duration of avalon while active.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:28 pm

kaguhyphenya wrote:
In my opinion,

D - Unseal/Seal Invisible Air
Perhaps you can slightly change the idea of the spell- Don't have to unseal/seal Invisible Air, why not her armor too?

Unsealing
1) Don't have to just seal Invisible Air, it possibly can unseal her ''armor'' like in F/Z
2) Unseal = Either passively gives mana regen or when ''unsealed'' you gain mana (add some cooldown, so it won't be abused lol). == Saber uses her mana to seal her armor/IA, so...
3) Since it also unseals her ''armor'', she can gain some MS boost. == When you take off your armour, you're faster <_<

Sealing
1) Since it's "sealed'', canonically (is this a word?), no one knows the length of the sword (except few). Thus, it should deal more melee damage to certain chars, like Lancer?
2) When activated nearby enemies, it does slight pushback (150 units?) - MANA BURST, trololo?
3) Since she seals her armor, possibly you can add armor? == Cause...armor gives armor <_<.
4) You can reduce her MS while she uses this and add an attribute to remove the MS reduction o_o? ==When you wear your armour, slower, yes? o_o

For Avalon, you can add like...
1) When Saber is not in battle, her HP regen increases immensely (1/2/3/4/5% per second?)
2) When Avalon is used, HP regen is stopped. (or add a trigger if you want it to be stopped?)

Just ideas of course with a bit of taking from Kok's post o_o

5% reg is bad, make saber even more unkillable lol

the rest, i thought of but i couldn't really figure a way for it to NOT be abused

for example the mana reg would help saber in str based saber if ur lacking mana

more damage sealing was suggested by kok on an attribute and it got rejected, so obvious buffing melee on direct contact is not the solution.

mana burst for saber has been suggested already too long before us, and that also got rejected... for either making saber to strong or reducing her strength in spell-based saber
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:33 pm

In reality there's no reason why Dark Saber should have ever been added in the first place. It's like adding dark Berserker. She's just like normal Saber, except Dark. I guess it's too late to just remove her now, though.

I'll agree that DS can't quite play with the team as much as other characters can. However, that's something that gives her a bit of unique flavor. Why change that now, and make her more similar to the other characters? If you think that Dark Saber is weak in comparison to Saber, then give her a buff. If you want to give DS a new skill, then replace Q with something and make it an innate with a buff for it if you take the melee attribute.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:46 pm

troll madoka
that was my first thought about ds Q, that it should be passive, but than i kept thinking about, on what her Q would be that would help her teamwork better,

turns out, saber's best skill for teamwork is probably excal, but why shouldn't dark excal fulfill it if its same role given that they're the same skills.

thats how i approached for dark excal/excal, but the problem with that was, how could an E be equal to R in that case. so i made them both E, but that meant that ds required new r skill so thats where my problems sort of began...

it could be botigun i guess but i guess thats where it all ends...
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:29 pm

DS needs changes as you pointed out but you'll be making DS a total beast if you don't nerf some of of those buffs you're way too desperately adding (I know they're just ideas so far but)
See here:
3.2k HP
25% MR
50% slow for 3 sec with 960 dmg W
Chance for freeze excal (30%)
620 dmg Q
MS 25%, AS 25%, Attack 100%, 10% corruption with R

Lol he became a fucking hybrid of all the servants. You probably already know this is going to recieve massive QQ from asia (little bitches) but you're on the right track.

Recklessness and orbs were terrible skills pretty much only adding to diversity of the game I'm glad you're thinking of getting rid of them (or move them).

Your idea of Saber's D is cute. Go with it. RE is good.

Aside from the criticism and along with my own suggestions I got none so far other than that you should watch out adding unnecessary changes or focusing solely on the fate-canon ideas for abilities, make up something similar if you can, those are always fun too.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:01 pm

Laruku wrote:
DS needs changes as you pointed out but you'll be making DS a total beast if you don't nerf some of of those buffs you're way too desperately adding (I know they're just ideas so far but)
See here:
3.2k HP
25% MR
50% slow for 3 sec with 960 dmg W
Chance for freeze excal (30%)
620 dmg Q
MS 25%, AS 25%, Attack 100%, 10% corruption with R

Lol he became a fucking hybrid of all the servants. You probably already know this is going to recieve massive QQ from asia (little bitches) but you're on the right track.

Recklessness and orbs were terrible skills pretty much only adding to diversity of the game I'm glad you're thinking of getting rid of them (or move them).

Your idea of Saber's D is cute. Go with it. RE is good.

Aside from the criticism and along with my own suggestions I got none so far other than that you should watch out adding unnecessary changes or focusing solely on the fate-canon ideas for abilities, make up something similar if you can, those are always fun too.

hyprid is easy to fix, for example you can increase costs for attribute's or seperate improvements so that u can't get hyprid automaticly every game or u can but it will cost you tons of stats till you do so.

like instead of 4th improve melee and dark excal in 1 attri

it could be a 5th attribute that improves dark excal and costs 14 points and melee attri could cost 15 points with same function as old one did.

I was sort of thinking if 2nd attribute should improve q w all together like making Q not push and deal only 410 damage without 2nd, and with 2nd doing 610 with push back costing 18 points though i figured that ds q w should be stronger than sabers (slightly) but not to the point that it breaks balance.

anyhow with that, it would be 18+14+12 (2nd/3rd/5th) to get q w e and botigun at its best. than its either tank or melee or int if let's say the stat was int based for combo

and ya numbers can change
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:44 pm

Laruku wrote:
DS needs changes as you pointed out but you'll be making DS a total beast if you don't nerf some of of those buffs you're way too desperately adding (I know they're just ideas so far but)
See here:
3.2k HP
25% MR
50% slow for 3 sec with 960 dmg W
Chance for freeze excal (30%)
620 dmg Q
MS 25%, AS 25%, Attack 100%, 10% corruption with R

Lol he became a fucking hybrid of all the servants. You probably already know this is going to recieve massive QQ from asia (little bitches) but you're on the right track.

Recklessness and orbs were terrible skills pretty much only adding to diversity of the game I'm glad you're thinking of getting rid of them (or move them).

Your idea of Saber's D is cute. Go with it. RE is good.

Aside from the criticism and along with my own suggestions I got none so far other than that you should watch out adding unnecessary changes or focusing solely on the fate-canon ideas for abilities, make up something similar if you can, those are always fun too.

WTF IS WITH YOUR SIGNATURE LOL
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:13 am

l46kok wrote:
Laruku wrote:
DS needs changes as you pointed out but you'll be making DS a total beast if you don't nerf some of of those buffs you're way too desperately adding (I know they're just ideas so far but)
See here:
3.2k HP
25% MR
50% slow for 3 sec with 960 dmg W
Chance for freeze excal (30%)
620 dmg Q
MS 25%, AS 25%, Attack 100%, 10% corruption with R

Lol he became a fucking hybrid of all the servants. You probably already know this is going to recieve massive QQ from asia (little bitches) but you're on the right track.

Recklessness and orbs were terrible skills pretty much only adding to diversity of the game I'm glad you're thinking of getting rid of them (or move them).

Your idea of Saber's D is cute. Go with it. RE is good.

Aside from the criticism and along with my own suggestions I got none so far other than that you should watch out adding unnecessary changes or focusing solely on the fate-canon ideas for abilities, make up something similar if you can, those are always fun too.

WTF IS WITH YOUR SIGNATURE LOL

it looks even better against the black background
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:42 pm

Well for one if you were going to make Dexcali = to Excali you could've atleast used the same damage scaling and +300 damage to excali on the attribute.

That and Dexcali should probably slow all targets hit by 15% but remove the freeze chance since Excali couldn't get a buff that wouldn't make it overpowered to match this freeze buff.

Recklessness could probably add 50% attack speed at level 5 if it's going to become an R spell since your version from Q to R only added 5% movespeed, 0.5 sec stun removal and LOWERED the duration. You've basically just nerfed the spell and then upgraded it to a R spell at the same time. Also this spell probably shouldn't be able to be dispelled by purge and etc. (Also if you compare it to spells like Arondight this one is really lacking as you can still be stunned for awhile and held by spells like Enkidu, let alone Lancelot can rape a hero in 2-3 seconds because of attacking extremely fast while this requires about 3-5(Depending on luck) hits of meleeing which can take anywhere from 5-10 seconds) Changing the attack speed bonus to 40% at level 5 is probably needed. (Even then she'd still probably be 4x slower than Lancelot's attacks.)

DS's Q could probably be scaled the same as invisible air but remove the 50% slow on on mana shroud attribute and make mana blast attribute buff Prana slash like knighthood does, so that the Q can be scaled exactly the same damage.
The pushback itself should probably be 200/250/300/350/400.

As for Mana burst instead of adding 300 damage the attribute could add 150 damage and cause it to 'overload' the mana on units hit silencing them for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 seconds


Then there's Saber who's normal excali should probably be something like the planned Dexcali then but instead of freezing she burns the targets hit with 30 damage per second for 5 seconds on all units hit without the attribute.

This would allow giving Dark Saber an attribute similar to Sabers excali attribute with 13 cost, +300 damage and +500 damage to creature. (Then just make Sabers default combo RE and remove the combo change on Excali attribute and they'll be exactly the same.)

Dark Sabers melee attribute should then be put into the Botigun attribute and Botigun can only be used when the attribute is acquired. (This would have this attribute buffing just her R spell)

Mana Shroud attribute would also need a cost nerf since you're changing the AoE gain on W to Mana Blast attribute.

Would make her attributes TYUI T-Mana Shroud(11) Y-Dark Excali(13) U-Botigun/Melee(17) I-Mana Blast/Prana Slash(17)

It the end it'd look like;

Q- Same as Invisible Air except pushback instead of pull
W- Same as current W
E- Dark Excali that has same damage, cooldown and cast time as Excalibur.
R- 20%/40%/60%/80%/100% Damage, 20%/25%/30%/35%/40% attack speed, 0.5 sec debuff removal and 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% move speed.

T- +5% MR and +30 armor.
Y- Same as Sabers Excali attribute.
U- Adds 50 damage to DS, 10% for 400 damage and enables the use of Botigun while R is active.
I- Adds 150 damage to Prana Slash, 150 damage to Mana Burst, 300 AoE to Mana Burst and causes Mana Burst to silence for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:54 pm

thanks for fixing those numbers although to bad i can't edit kok's post on those suggestions
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:10 am

1. Lot of heroes doesn't have fallback tanking skills and there is nothing wrong with not having them
2. Dexcal is same as Ea, is more of a anti-ubw weapon, ninja beam or anti creature weapon and i believe it should remain that way
3. DS natural tanking ability is pretty scary, why are u making it even more imba than it need to be
4. Her skills can connect, like botigun and mana blast both connect well with jumps. This is pretty player dependent
5. She might have a cast time on all her skills, which makes her less spammable, but not every hero need to be a spam fest like gil
6. U r giving her too much disable effect on new version. don't forget knockback is similar to stun as it disable channel and use of most skills.
7. Rather than bring dexcal down to excal level, why not other way around since they r both Rank A weapons
8. I think invis air should be more of a speed buff like bloodlust that u can caste on ally or speed debuff on enemy(also reduce range damage)
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:21 pm

yggdrasil wrote:
1. Lot of heroes doesn't have fallback tanking skills and there is nothing wrong with not having them
2. Dexcal is same as Ea, is more of a anti-ubw weapon, ninja beam or anti creature weapon and i believe it should remain that way
3. DS natural tanking ability is pretty scary, why are u making it even more imba than it need to be
4. Her skills can connect, like botigun and mana blast both connect well with jumps. This is pretty player dependent
5. She might have a cast time on all her skills, which makes her less spammable, but not every hero need to be a spam fest like gil
6. U r giving her too much disable effect on new version. don't forget knockback is similar to stun as it disable channel and use of most skills.
7. Rather than bring dexcal down to excal level, why not other way around since they r both Rank A weapons
8. I think invis air should be more of a speed buff like bloodlust that u can caste on ally or speed debuff on enemy(also reduce range damage)

DS's 'tanking ability' is rather lacking compared to other tanks as besides from MR and armor she doesn't have anything to actually tank with, let alone 0.5 sec debuff removal is hardly just a tanking ability and just lets you escape from moves, not actually tank them.

Excalibur already got a buff that makes it nearly Anti-Creature which Dexcali will get the same when it's changed. (Also with that creature buff/nerf where high-end only does 110% damage now with attribute, Dexcali 2300(2600) + 10% compared to 1800 + 500, which makes it only a 230[560] difference)

Dark Saber getting too much disable??? The knockback will only be about 0.5 second duration similar to Invisible Air, and on the contrary DS has/will have less disables than most heroes, especially with the nerf to her slow from moving Release Darkness from E -> F(Which isn't much since it only lasted for 0.4 seconds....).
---The hero you need to talk about disable is rider, not dark saber.

The difference being stated is that Excalibur is usually more useful in team play than Excali is, which is why people want Dexcali to be brought to Excali's level.

Invisible Air has near infinite uses since it can be used from reducing friction to making vacuums of air, so anything created is 'canon'.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:56 pm

EternalDevote wrote:
yggdrasil wrote:
1. Lot of heroes doesn't have fallback tanking skills and there is nothing wrong with not having them
2. Dexcal is same as Ea, is more of a anti-ubw weapon, ninja beam or anti creature weapon and i believe it should remain that way
3. DS natural tanking ability is pretty scary, why are u making it even more imba than it need to be
4. Her skills can connect, like botigun and mana blast both connect well with jumps. This is pretty player dependent
5. She might have a cast time on all her skills, which makes her less spammable, but not every hero need to be a spam fest like gil
6. U r giving her too much disable effect on new version. don't forget knockback is similar to stun as it disable channel and use of most skills.
7. Rather than bring dexcal down to excal level, why not other way around since they r both Rank A weapons
8. I think invis air should be more of a speed buff like bloodlust that u can caste on ally or speed debuff on enemy(also reduce range damage)

DS's 'tanking ability' is rather lacking compared to other tanks as besides from MR and armor she doesn't have anything to actually tank with, let alone 0.5 sec debuff removal is hardly just a tanking ability and just lets you escape from moves, not actually tank them.

Excalibur already got a buff that makes it nearly Anti-Creature which Dexcali will get the same when it's changed. (Also with that creature buff/nerf where high-end only does 110% damage now with attribute, Dexcali 2300(2600) + 10% compared to 1800 + 500, which makes it only a 230[560] difference)

Dark Saber getting too much disable??? The knockback will only be about 0.5 second duration similar to Invisible Air, and on the contrary DS has/will have less disables than most heroes, especially with the nerf to her slow from moving Release Darkness from E -> F(Which isn't much since it only lasted for 0.4 seconds....).
---The hero you need to talk about disable is rider, not dark saber.

The difference being stated is that Excalibur is usually more useful in team play than Excali is, which is why people want Dexcali to be brought to Excali's level.

Invisible Air has near infinite uses since it can be used from reducing friction to making vacuums of air, so anything created is 'canon'.

ED cover most of the bads in ur post, but i got a question myself on your point 7) and 2)



I'd like to know why saber's excal should be nerfed in overall teamplay use in f/a? (point 7)

since most "after-counters" to ubw are simply nukes, i don't see why dark saber's should surpass in it(given its the same firepower as excal). (point 2)


also edit on the 1st post trying to use everyone's input of which i found helpful.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:23 am

You said that the main problem with DS is her lack of connectivity with other heroes in team play, but that is stupid. Teamwork is ability for people to work together and this can work in both way, rather than excal chain target it is also possible to do it other way around where you chain target she is going to excal so teamwork is really not about skills and whatnot but player's ability to read other player. Connectivity with skill is about both players timing. If you can't time then is very simple to fail even bp-jump which most east does so cast time make no real difference which also goes back to reading other player's movement. Also a 800 difference between excal and dexcal is what determine if it kills zerker during level E or not.

Having lot of hp and armor is already quit heavy tanking, and baside, not everyone need to tank like hell. If everyone is a tank then it just make assasins a spam feast because of they low damage output. Also have you guess check how much potential tank is already in this game?(zerker,lancelot,venger,lancer,caster,saber,creature,archer,rider) Or are you trying to make heroes like in mb where tank got more tanky until is freaking un-killable without spam

There is nothing wrong with a hero that have certain weakness that is unique to them, it makes the game worth playing and not every heroes need to be played the same way as every other heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:32 pm

yggdrasil wrote:
You said that the main problem with DS is her lack of connectivity with other heroes in team play, but that is stupid. Teamwork is ability for people to work together and this can work in both way, rather than excal chain target it is also possible to do it other way around where you chain target she is going to excal so teamwork is really not about skills and whatnot but player's ability to read other player. Connectivity with skill is about both players timing. If you can't time then is very simple to fail even bp-jump which most east does so cast time make no real difference which also goes back to reading other player's movement. Also a 800 difference between excal and dexcal is what determine if it kills zerker during level E or not.

Having lot of hp and armor is already quit heavy tanking, and baside, not everyone need to tank like hell. If everyone is a tank then it just make assasins a spam feast because of they low damage output. Also have you guess check how much potential tank is already in this game?(zerker,lancelot,venger,lancer,caster,saber,creature,archer,rider) Or are you trying to make heroes like in mb where tank got more tanky until is freaking un-killable without spam

There is nothing wrong with a hero that have certain weakness that is unique to them, it makes the game worth playing and not every heroes need to be played the same way as every other heroes.

The problem is that Dexcali's cast time is so long that it usually needs to be cast way before anything else just to be able to hit and the second it starts casting everyone knows it's casting so they run away or use A/B, unlike enuma where the sound does play until right before it fires.

Yes there's tanks everywhere in the game and the main problem is F/A itself where every single hero can add 900 additional health through 50 strength. The MAIN difference is that Dark Saber IS supposed to be tank unlike all those other heroes as she has the SAME Endurance rank as BERSERKER and LANCELOT and lets not forget that those 2 are actually gaining A rank Endurance because they are Berserker class, they are really B rank Endurance.

Also remember that if you're putting points into mainly tank that you're abandoning maximum damage output like almost every other game, so yes a tank hero should have to make those damage heroes spam 2-4 times just to kill them, otherwise what is the point of actually being tank if you can't actually tank anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:20 pm

yggdrasil wrote:
You said that the main problem with DS is her lack of connectivity with other heroes in team play, but that is stupid. Teamwork is ability for people to work together and this can work in both way, rather than excal chain target it is also possible to do it other way around where you chain target she is going to excal so teamwork is really not about skills and whatnot but player's ability to read other player. Connectivity with skill is about both players timing. If you can't time then is very simple to fail even bp-jump which most east does so cast time make no real difference which also goes back to reading other player's movement. Also a 800 difference between excal and dexcal is what determine if it kills zerker during level E or not.

Having lot of hp and armor is already quit heavy tanking, and baside, not everyone need to tank like hell. If everyone is a tank then it just make assasins a spam feast because of they low damage output. Also have you guess check how much potential tank is already in this game?(zerker,lancelot,venger,lancer,caster,saber,creature,archer,rider) Or are you trying to make heroes like in mb where tank got more tanky until is freaking un-killable without spam

There is nothing wrong with a hero that have certain weakness that is unique to them, it makes the game worth playing and not every heroes need to be played the same way as every other heroes.

holy holy bad

well there's so much i can argue with this but let's start with your misunderstanding and example

it's not impossible to connect skills with ds, in fact everything is able to connect(such as ds w with orbs with nine), but it's the likely hood of it connecting.

but if we look at the 6 principle skills that connect skills together in f/a(most of them are just disables to hold you in place for dmg skills to hit) and few of the common secondary's,

primary: Nine,RB,Enkidu,BP,UBW, Ta hold
semi-primary Nail
secondary's invisible wind, Crash, dust explode,windblade etc.

secondary's just usually are extra skills that were put there to fit the character or complete him/her, they often aid in some form or way to allow a skill to hit, but it's not 100%
(notice saber at least has one even though it's not the best)

if we look at dark excal(her massive dmg dealing nuke), the cast time is 2.75+travel time and jump (animation). nine disables for about 3 sec (it's like 2.85 or so), let's say it takes about 3 sec to land a dark excal from start to finish, well if you look at the disable time, and the dmg spell time, it's almost right on the dot so the likely hood of doing dark excal+nine is probably low.

for other disables, you can already forget about bp and rb as the cast time alone already exceeds the disable time. so the only one's remaining are ta hold which is an attribute that depending who is playing ta will take it or not, and ubw which has a small luck factor on it because u might end up not hitting a person in ubw if the angle of the beam is aimed poorly due to the nature of ubw randomly placing people in the reality randomly.

chain might also work with dark excal, but it can get disabled by people stunning gilga, so the duration of chain being full duration is rather rare unless amp gilga.

overall the chance of connection is low so my goal is simply to increase it.

pretty much ed just covered the point on his 1st paragraph on the above post


for tank, there is a difference between taking a hit (tanking) and dodging a hit.

half of those you named are not even really tank, they just have skills that allow you to "run" or dodge it, example: lancer QQ is a running skill(dodge) and battle continuation is like a second chance at living a round while rider doesn't have running skills but her skills disable other people's movement making it hard to catch rider. you often don't even need max str to be hard to kill target if your reflects are really above the average player(although I'd find that a bit inhumane).

the R that i gave ds is just another one of those skills that allows you to escape "death", it doesn't make her more tanky, it just make her able to dodge skills something that some heros already have now but this is probably a worse version of it comparing to saber's avalon and lancelot's arondight.


Last edited by josph on Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:10 pm

Having high rank endurance meaning more health and defense, it doesn't mean you get a skill to help you tank at all so is completely unrelated.

And Josph you can just blink C and nine after dexcal has been charge, it doesn't always have to be dexcal on nine, this is same to be said for all of those. Just like how u can chain those who are in nuke zone instead of nuking those who are chained

Also i listed 9 character (out of 14) and you address 2, even if we take away those 2 is still 7/14 which is half of the heroes who are quite tanky and that is not even including ds there.
Lancer BC is quit useful for tanking, that last chance is what let you enable Q seal and retaliate. + lancers potential to reach decent amount of HP, it can become quite tanky and how is half of those i anme invovle avoiding damage?(venger berg + E, archer shield, caster shield, lancelot R, zerker E, saber avalon, creature natural regen + insta heal) All of those involve making them more tanky. Only rider invovle slowing her attacking and stonning them but she can achieve a max hp of around 3k with 15% mr.

What do you mean 0.5 debuff?? u mean half duration of debuff?

Also another fun part of nuke beams, ninja beams which can kill most heroes early and hill distortion. In fact how many high rank nuking skills like that even exist? only 2 really exist so why make it 1
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:19 pm

yggdrasil wrote:
Having high rank endurance meaning more health and defense, it doesn't mean you get a skill to help you tank at all so is completely unrelated.

And Josph you can just blink C and nine after dexcal has been charge, it doesn't always have to be dexcal on nine, this is same to be said for all of those. Just like how u can chain those who are in nuke zone instead of nuking those who are chained

Also i listed 9 character (out of 14) and you address 2, even if we take away those 2 is still 7/14 which is half of the heroes who are quite tanky and that is not even including ds there.
Lancer BC is quit useful for tanking, that last chance is what let you enable Q seal and retaliate. + lancers potential to reach decent amount of HP, it can become quite tanky and how is half of those i anme invovle avoiding damage?(venger berg + E, archer shield, caster shield, lancelot R, zerker E, saber avalon, creature natural regen + insta heal) All of those involve making them more tanky. Only rider invovle slowing her attacking and stonning them but she can achieve a max hp of around 3k with 15% mr.

What do you mean 0.5 debuff?? u mean half duration of debuff?

Also another fun part of nuke beams, ninja beams which can kill most heroes early and hill distortion. In fact how many high rank nuking skills like that even exist? only 2 really exist so why make it 1

The main reason DS is even getting that 0.5 debuff removal is so that she can actually melee with it instead of just being perma stunned and what not, it's the same reason Lancelot can't even be targeted during Arondight.
If you'd like a 'canon' explanation it could be that she overcharges herself with mana thus reducing the effect magic effects actually have on her.
Even as it is with that debuff removal every 0.5 seconds Arondight is still the better R spell.
Also it's funny you mention unrelated as Arondight isn't even supposed to disable Lancelot from being targeted, which can be said as an unrelated skill, I could name a couple others but that'd be pointless. (Let alone some spells for half the heroes have already gone to the point of being 'unrelated' as they're spells the hero shouldn't even possess.)

Yes I mentioned the 2 heroes that actually have A rank Endurance equal to Dark Saber, you can complain all you want about tanks but go complain about the heroes who aren't even supposed to be tanks yet are.

Dexcali isn't that ninja as it has retarded travel time and the sound bit is played as soon as it's starting to cast which leads into B/A being used.

Nine also only lasts 2.4 in stuns then 2.8 in pushback meaning Dexcali needs to already be casting before nine is even used just to hit 100% of the time, which is really bad when this only happens for 2 spells in the game with 1 being better as it doesn't play a sound bit the SECOND it starts casting letting enemies know you're casting it.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:52 pm

yggdrasil wrote:
Having high rank endurance meaning more health and defense, it doesn't mean you get a skill to help you tank at all so is completely unrelated.

And Josph you can just blink C and nine after dexcal has been charge, it doesn't always have to be dexcal on nine, this is same to be said for all of those. Just like how u can chain those who are in nuke zone instead of nuking those who are chained

Also i listed 9 character (out of 14) and you address 2, even if we take away those 2 is still 7/14 which is half of the heroes who are quite tanky and that is not even including ds there.
Lancer BC is quit useful for tanking, that last chance is what let you enable Q seal and retaliate. + lancers potential to reach decent amount of HP, it can become quite tanky and how is half of those i anme invovle avoiding damage?(venger berg + E, archer shield, caster shield, lancelot R, zerker E, saber avalon, creature natural regen + insta heal) All of those involve making them more tanky. Only rider invovle slowing her attacking and stonning them but she can achieve a max hp of around 3k with 15% mr.

What do you mean 0.5 debuff?? u mean half duration of debuff?

Also another fun part of nuke beams, ninja beams which can kill most heroes early and hill distortion. In fact how many high rank nuking skills like that even exist? only 2 really exist so why make it 1

I didn't address the others heros you named but i can, they all have something to fallback on for tanking, thats why they're somewhat better than ds.

caster has 1 push, 1 disable, and 1 invul (LB), she also has shield which makes her tank by herself even though she isn't really suppose to be more tank than ds but considering how much rage aim caster gets, it makes up for it. firewall/silence/lb maybe aren't as great as berserking or arondight for survival, but every little bit helps, right?

creature used to have ms, but now it's not a moving unit and since having 1 hit koe beams would just cause the creature to feed all game, it survives barely a beam for the sake of balance.

archer has rho for tanking but he has a penalty of being unable to move(balance) and often he still dies even with rho against nukes.he can also max str up to 2800 and even 3100 in ubw with hp buff, but he is giving up on getting hrunt and crane which both do about 2500-2400 damage at max int+lvl that both ignore b scroll. he actually has pretty big penalty to go str, so his reasons for being a tank better be damn worth it if he's giving up that much firepower.

avenger is a hero that is fully related to late game, and risks his life in order to gain a kill(swap/berg). I haven't seen much complains of avenger being to tank because if he didn't have more hp than what a beam does, he would have problems berging without scrolls. you can put scrolls to insure your survivability during berg, but that means your reflecting less damage. you also give up the legendary bx3 avenger melee when you max str and often swap as well so even he has some drawbacks going full tank, and even so, to many skills berged at once only led to his death considering his 0 mr. he also has F has his run back skill, E for his tank .. etc.

saber is suppose to be tank, instinct and Avalon are her skills for survival or "tank" and i think berserkers are self-explanatory for their tanking ability. as far as i know, saber's and berserker are meant to be tank so i am just bring it up to par for ds.

0.5 sec debuff is like, if you get hit by C scroll, normally the duration of stun lasts for 1 sec, with r, it lasts 0.5 instead.

Enuma is an ex skill, it's suppose to be the strongest aoe in the game, so i don't have any idea what the previous makers were thinking when they made ds but i don't fully get how ds came to be accepted in that state against saber. Like i said, it was probably accepted that ds was made for arena for her combo (mmb) and saber was made for dm, but those two game modes are seperate now so there's no reason for one to fall back over such a silly reason.

like ed said, I don't see ds dark excal as a ninja beam that much because of the fact that the sound effect has already played, unless someone helps the beam hit, it will probably end up being a waste.
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PostSubject: Re: Josph's DS Suggestion   Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:04 am

I am pretty sure u saw ppl run back when they hear excal..... and get hit from it from behind.... I don't get what u mean saber are suppose to be tank, i find that just bullshit. sabers are suppose to be jack of all trade mater of none they are strongest class because they are most balanced class so don't give me crap about how they suppose to be tanky as hell. I mean we already have god load of potential tanks and ds is quite balanced as she is why change it?
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