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 Bouquet. 10char

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psycho91



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Join date : 2011-04-28

PostSubject: Bouquet. 10char   Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:05 pm

First of all I would like to say that this is one of the most awesome wc3 games out there. When I first played this map at like around 2008, there wasn't even zb and i remember TA having his current D as Q and his current Q as E (yes 400 mp for <20s of invis). Back then it was a map never hosted in those minigames(anything but dota) room. Then came around 2011 when I got introduced to the TW/MY FSN room in garena. Playing nothing but f/a ever since. I still kinda suck today relative to most veterans and I feel that this is testimony for the depth of this game.

One thing that baffles me is why this game is "not popular" among most people? I used to play in SG/MY garena rooms, in the minigames room there, people play stuff like tower defense/mazes/anything under the sun. I always thought most of these games are fun at 2-3 playthroughs at best. Then there were those fight of characters map, bleach VS one piece, reborn vs naruto stuff. Well I can't comment much about their current state but to my knowledge, they definitely pale in comparison to f/a where depth and fun is concerned.

When I was a newb at this game, there was this guy who hosted f/a whenever possible in the minigames room I was playing.
one major problem for the host is that, the map size is too huge. >5mb would mean that any newbie that came into the room would have to wait for his download to finish. and even if he does finish downloading, chances are that he wouldn't have the patience to wait through the rest downloading. It was a struggle to even fill a 4v4 game without people leaving after losing patience to wait.

I'm no map developer, to my limited knowledge, this map is already compressed and encrypted. But if you ask me, the size of map is the main barrier to newcomers.

Even if a game starts with 10 people within the room, it doesn't even take 10minutes for the numbers to drop to 5-7 with people "ragequitting" after getting heroes like avenger or getting OHKOed by a dexcal or ea.

Again during my newb days, where the importance of C/B/A/F3FE were totally foreign to me, I remember seeing stuff like dexcal's 2600 damage and think OMG THAT CAN OHKO EVERYTHING or FA's windblade-tsu and go OMG COOL STUFF, only to go "wtf" when blue flames and green spheres appearing around the enemies or when enemy miraculously have full hp and I was thinking, "h4x".

My point is, this game has too steep a learning curve. For one, when the game starts, upon choosing a hero, there is no real "tutorial" mode. Be it a DM where he is expected to follow his teammates or FFA where he is supposed to farm efficiently, there is not much chance to "experiment" and click around. I'm sure we all know, newbies almost never touch command seals. They aren't intuitive. The expected response to low hp or low mana is to run back and heal, not fqwer and go on a rampage. Then there's comboes. Most warcraft3 games don't involve such complexity. 20 stats to all? All of a sudden I feel like I'm playing some complex final fantasy game and I need a walkthrough. Imagine playing against people who's hacking and have HP that goes back to full, using ultimates like twice or more within a fight when you know nuts about all these.

And due to this learning curve, regulars find no fun in introducing the game to newbies. Its pretty tiresome to teach newbies considering the complexities of this game, it is also no fun when you "pubstomp" people who don't know how to on A scrolls. I believe most of us know the emphasis on teamwork in this game, we don't derive joy from 12-0ing the enemy team, we aren't dotards that enjoy farming his way up to triple kills. And I think we eventually shut newbies out as well.

I feel that its a waste this map go relatively unnoticed for such a long time, though I have no solutions to this problem. The main strength of this game which should NEVER be compromised on turns out to be an effective barrier to newcomers. I have no idea about how it is like in BNET though, my war3 is pirated so I only play on Garena.

Well I shall end this pointless rant, anyway I'm glad to see that map development has stepped up tremendously since around 3 months ago. I'm also wondering how ZRider's ionian hetaroi is going to be coded considering there's UBW. keep up the awesomeness. Very Happy
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TheWorstNewbie

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PostSubject: Re: Bouquet. 10char   Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:16 pm

massive wall of text is massive
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josph

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Age : 22
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PostSubject: Re: Bouquet. 10char   Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:47 pm

yes, the game has high learning curve. most people find it fun to discovery learning the game on their own HOWEVER the game is so old that most old players are incredibility good at the game ( at least above a pub level) that it makes the game seem as if your "hacking" because others don't understand the mechanics of the game and say "OMG" THIS SKILL IS OP, when it's simply requires experience to and teamwork to counter it. Also, most games don't have a teamwork curve, in fact they are completely solo and require no mandatory teamwork, of course it's a bonus to do teamwork in games, but it's not required unlike this one.

terms of map size, kok and squally are recoding the entire map, expectations are that the map size will decrease dramatically, so that may solve some problems for you
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macgrady

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PostSubject: Re: Bouquet. 10char   Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:06 am

what who's this psycho91 i've never seen you on garena before o_o never saw that ign before either
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EternalDevote
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Location : New Canada that's in the sky above old Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bouquet. 10char   Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:36 am

Map wasn't really designed for newbies anyway. It's fine if they take an interest in it but with the map size the way it is, adding any type of tutorial mode would make it even bigger.

Besides the point it's extremely hard to make a game that's noob friendly as a map maker because you know how things might/will turn out and expect that if you make something too easy the people who actually know how to play will abuse this and will make the game less fun for the people who actually play this regularly.

Not really much to do for this game in terms of noob friendly without making an entire different game, mostly because most of the noobs you're trying to make it friendly for are the people who probably play things like the campaign on easiest mode and still have problems.
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le.sang

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PostSubject: Re: Bouquet. 10char   Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:31 am

for my part i began this while caster has mana shield, you had to press Q like a god to recharge your mana o/
and DS was a lag hero with her orbs Surprised
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Milky Holmes

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PostSubject: Re: Bouquet. 10char   Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:20 am

Being newb friendly isn't necessary at all. Just look at Dark Souls. Great game, and it doesn't hold your hand.
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Launcelot

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PostSubject: Re: Bouquet. 10char   Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:08 pm

One way to help New people to get use to this kind of game is AI mode.

however unlike dota lol or any other AOS games, Fate has mechanism that is nearly impossible to have AI. (basically Reiju system is issue) So All you can do is learn directly head on, just start from pure newbie and play against real people and get scold. I think its kind of barrier in a sense.

I got your points in most case and agree to some extent.
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